Gatekeepers
Have you ever bumped up against a gatekeeper? You know, the person in charge of a thing who bars entrance to their domain? They’ll let you through only if you dutifully bow to their power, repeat their creed, or maybe pay the right price. It helps if you have a nice face.
Once upon a time in Christian music, there were gatekeepers who stood along the boundary walls, deciding whose music was fit for Christendom. Their job was to keep offbeat outsiders from entering the rarified realms of Contemporary Christian Music, aka CCM.
A short list of the guardians included:
- the record labels who signed–or passed on–new artists.
- the radio stations who played–or wouldn’t play– the songs.
- the retailers who sold–or refused to sell– the cassettes and CD’s in their stores and catalogs.
Unified in their goal of keeping the name of Christian music pure, they often worked against each other, pretending not to be in it for the money or defending the fact they were also in it for the money.
I should qualify that this was my experience as a CCM artist.
In the 1990s, my husband Scott and I, aka Out of the Grey, joined the Contemporary Christian Music scene. Our songs rode the waves of CCM radio and we played for CCM audiences all across the country. Privileged to have been a part of that world, I’ll share some stories from behind the scenes.
Strangers at the Gate
The record label that signed us had initially passed on Out of the Grey (then known only as Christine and Scott Dente). They didn’t dig our first demo tape which was a mix of other people’s songs and styles. We had compromised a bit to try to fit the CCM mold. Chastened by rejection, we returned to the studio of a friend who encouraged us to be authentic and showcase the sounds we wanted to make.
We did just that. The four songs we wrote and recorded were truly us. This time, the record label signed off on our musical style. We gratefully signed the dotted line for their risk-taking investment in our first official Out of the Grey album, which would include the songs from our demo. We had taken our first steps through the outer walls into the world of CCM.
But back in 1991, that record would still be a stranger at other gates of the CCM industry, aka the mindustry. The people in charge understandably wanted to keep the status quo. They were wary of new music that diverged from what was current. So, though we had crossed a gauntlet, Scott and I soon came upon more hoops to jump through.
The Power of Labels
Our Christian record label had taken a chance in signing us but they also did their part in guarding the CCM fortress. They were careful to sign acts that fit the definition of Christian artistry:
- sing songs about Jesus.
- behave like Christians.
- clean up nicely with hair and makeup for a photo shoot.
Back then, Scott and I fit those descriptions. One exec even checked in with us: “You know, I only know how to sell music to Christians. You good with that?”
We were good with that. We were Christians making music!
However, we were not interested in making musical mush to be spoon-fed through the conduits of acceptable art. We wanted our artistry to reach a deeper level of beauty and mystery, combined with Christian truth. This proved to be an elusive target.
Religious Litmus Test
For example, for the first Out of the Grey record, we wrote a song called, “Time Will Tell.”
In the lyric, I lamented the tyranny of perfectionism and worry about the future. In the chorus, I sang about giving up the struggle and trusting in the help that comes in time. Through cliche and personification, I hoped to convey a universal human theme. I can’t say what the future holds but, Time, indeed, always tells.
However, before we had recorded the song, our record label insisted we modify my original lyric to fit the Christian bill. “To get Christian radio to play it, it needs to be a Christian song.”
“What?” I was miffed, already suspicious of the word Christian being used as an adjective. Now it was a litmus test for artistic expression within a simple song?
Why did I have to put a God-shaped bow on it? Especially since every other song on our record would pass the religious litmus test. Well, okay, maybe not “The Dance” or ”The Only Moment.” But those had no hope of being radio singles anyway.
Scott and I really wanted the song to stand as a portrait of human struggle without forcing a God-leaning lyric. Instead, we gave in to the pressure and I made a minor change in the second and third line in the chorus.
Time Will Tell
The original lyric was:
And I give up on myself again,
help will come, I can’t say when,
but time will tell
And I hold on for a better day,
how long I’ll wait I cannot say,
but time will tell, I know time will tell
I changed the first half to say:
And I give up on myself again,
By adding “but only when it’s in Your time,” I transformed the song to fit the shape of the record label gate.
Playing with Radio Heads
Yes, we and those guardians of the CCM galaxy had played our part in keeping radio programmers happy.
We prayed that that capital Y was our ticket to the ears of tuned-in Christians. The squeakiest listeners couldn’t complain that our music wasn’t safe for the whole family.
However, just after the release of “Time Will Tell,” Scott and I were spending a day at the label promoting the single to radio programmers. From a padded cubicle, we were phoning radio stations, asking the programmers and DJ’s to add our song to their playlists.
Many were happy to add Out of the Grey to their rotations and thanked us for making the music. But Scott and I remember well the wall we hit during a call to a particular Contemporary Christian radio station in Alabama. We knew beforehand that they had refused to put our song on the air.
“Why?” we asked the head programmer. He said, “not Christian enough.” Nope, not an overt Christian theme, even with the modified “in Your time.” Just an artistic look at a mundane conundrum.
Anyway, that DJ’s refusal bruised our brains. I think Scott asked him, “Did you play Stephen Curtis Chapman’s huge hit ‘I will Be Here?’ That doesn’t say anything about Jesus.”
The guy hung up on us. Probably never rotated any Out of the Grey music after that.
Mom and Pop, God Love ‘Em
Still other would-be power players were the small (and large) Christian bookstores meting out their limited shelf space. With careful, sometimes persnickety, criteria, Mom and Pop (God love ’em) balked at the slightest whiff of worldliness or weirdness. They didn’t want their customers getting skittish. It was their business after all to decide which cassettes would sell as well as their Christian knick-knacks.
I remember the story of a best-selling artist (God love her) who revealed her face without make-up on the cover of her latest CD. Rumor had it, the photo made Christian retailers uncomfortable. They refused to display it in their stores. Too raw? Too real? Who knows? The CDs were recalled, their covers made-over to fit the look of a true Christian singer.
Who can blame the owners of those businesses? They had a living to make. Plus, the holiness of God was tied up in all they sold. As uncomfortable as many of us were, mixing business with ministry, we did have families to feed and a faith to uphold.
Now for Some Real Christian Music
One more story about gatekeepers. Out of the Grey bumped into a few shining Christian stars whose parameters for real Christian music were also quite narrow.
Once, after we performed a 4-song set at a CCM festival, the artist next in line took the stage and shouted into his microphone: “Hey y’all, I hope you don’t mind if I sing some songs about Jesus?”
I am complaining a little but mostly I am grateful. Out of the Grey got to make lots of music and work with top notch industry people along the way. And make a living! It’s just fun to look back and realize how silly were some of the games we played.
I’m not sure how it works nowadays. Back then, when Christians scanned the airways for orthodox art, they often got regurgitations of what worked before. Too much of it was predictable and boring.
I get it: powerful music can get past the brain’s gatekeepers and travel straight to the heart. When we’re driving in the car with our kids, we don’t want provocative ideas slipping in without warning. Yet, adults and kids alike tend to tune out an old cliche unless it’s expressed in a fresh way.
Time and Time Again
There’s always a rub when someone new comes to town. The elders have their doubts while the youngsters gather around the spectacle. Artists innovate to find their voice and gain an audience. Art asks the big questions, leaving room for listener interpretation and new ideas.
Who can say if we needed all of those gates. Christendom itself is a big word for a wide space.
Yes, Religion has its creeds and boundaries to keep the bad guys in disguise from breaching our truth structures. But squeaky clean can make for sterile living and weak immune systems. And change is always at the gates.
Can we find the balance, trusting God to guard our open minds and hearts?
I can’t say if, in time, the story of art finds the perfect fairy tale ending.
This time, I’ll let Time speak for itself.
Christine, I was right there with you on this. My story is a bit different, in that I never got past the gatekeepers to where you and Scott were. But along the way, I was told all of what you said here. It’s always brought to mind that scene in “The Wizard of Oz” where Toto and Dorothy begin to realize the charade, and the “Great and Powerful Oz” bellows, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!”
But there he was, the gatekeeper—just a regular guy, turning cranks and dials—creating illusions of grandeur and insisting that others do the near-impossible and bring the broomstick of the wicked witch before he’d even consider helping them get anywhere.
In the end, I finally made it to a large gatekeeper—who then turned me away based on age. “Your music’s great. Memorable. Great look. But I’m sorry: we thought you were younger by your photos. We really don’t sign anyone over 25—28 at the most—though we hope to sign around 17 or 18. Then we figure you get three years artist development, and another three, most are let go.” I have always thought it strange that they would cater to the songwriting and ideas of youth over experience, those who’d lived enough to face struggle and find themselves a bit. (Mind you, I wasn’t “old”; I was 31 at that time.)
What you said about having a “nice face” or dressing the part (e.g., makeup, etc.) resonated with me, as well. Because they actually liked my face (as much as that shouldn’t matter). So why would my age detract from that? The answer—one I didn’t like—was that even the CCM world was making decisions based on sex appeal to listeners. And 31 isn’t is somehow not as sexy as 21. All I could think was, “I just want to share encouragement with people, not have them fawn over me.”
I’m not bitter. Sad, but never bitter. And I get the strong sense that you aren’t (though I hear your wry wit in your writing). What I loved about songwriting and singing has never been changed by those experiences. Only my perspective on it has changed; and as exciting as it seemed then to be picked up by a label, from where I stand now, I can’t help but feel I dodged a bullet of sorts.
I’m sorry to know that something you loved so much was tainted with “yuck” back then. But please know that you made a difference to many, many people—myself included. Your music and lyrics challenged and encouraged me through some of the most difficult times of my life.
Wow, I can still recall getting what they used to call a “sampler” back then—two songs by each of several new artists—and just being immediately hooked with the first four bars of “Wishes.” To this day, that is one of the best musical hooks I’ve ever heard. And your (what I referred to as) “angular” and unexpected melodies and voice changed the way I thought about music and its possibilities as a writer. In that way, you and Scott are part of the fabric of my becoming as a writer over the years. Though I’m not actively pursuing music anymore, I still write, because what is inside needs to come out. More of my writing is by way of books now, but the goal is the same: to encourage and connect people to what matters.
So thank you for all you gave and are still giving.
Nothing done through and for love is ever wasted.
Erik, that is quite a story and sadly, not surprising. Thank you for writing about your experience AND for continuing to write! That’s what we do to stay sane, encouraged, and connected. BTW, your website looks good and I look forward to reading your blogs ( :
If my personal music collection is any indication, I’d say you guys had it right. Over the past couple years I’ve gotten rid of all of my CCM cds except the early Vineyard stuff and EVERY CD you guys produced. I still listen to and ENJOY OOTG! Be different, it works!
Wow, OOTG lives on in your collection–that says it all! Thank you, Doug.
Thank you for sharing your journey with the gatekeepers. Your music was so unique, so moving, so beautiful. There was no one like you guys, and that was pure joy for those of us who loved music and God. Moving and deep. Thank you for pressing on and getting to my little tape player!!!! I had that Twila Paris CD. Her pic was raw and real. That’s what this Christian was searching for…and still is. Big hug from Illinois!
Amy, great to hear this from you–heartening–thanks, I’ll take that hug!
Hmmm. Don’t think I approve of that photo. Your messy hair, your b*droom eyes, Scott’s “Hey, you wanna piece of this?!” attitude… No folded hands, no plaintive, skyward looks. Not even a BIBLE fer crying out loud… But seriously. I kind of gave up on most pop music, “Christian” and otherwise – a long time ago. In CCM especially it seemed like some new trend would surface in pop music and a week later a CCM band/artist would jump on that trend. “Metallica? Sure, CCM has a band that sounds just like Metallica…”, (Sandi Patti…?) then the month after that, CCM radio would be flooded with Metallica sound-alikes. Meanwhile, pop had moved on to the Next Big Thing and the cycle started all over again. Of course there are always the outliers, God love ‘em, but you seldom hear them on K-LOVE.
Haha, Lance, a pretty good encapsulation of the way things work sometimes ) :
I can totally hear Scott asking that question, ROFL. Scott, you troublemaker! 🙂
Ha–yes!
Good Morning,
May Grace and Kindness rain upon you today in Jesus’ name. One of the things I had to learn at a very young age is that “in the long ALL institutions serve Themselves”. Institutions are built and run by fallible people with sin nature, thus regardless of their creed or mission statement they will in due time stray. We see that in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 that Jesus rebukes his own churches because they have strayed. I preach “be faithful to God, not your church” You are to serve Christ and do His will not be a puppet for an institution. As a career manager I often am in a situation where the firm I work for is abusive to my subordinates. I have to choose: do I stand up for my subordinate’s well fare, or back the company’s unjust motive?
I live by this creed:
I pitch my tent
with the
Unloved
Unwanted
The forgotten
and Forsaken
of man
As it is written in Isaiah 61. Jesus has come for the meek, lowly and the broken hearted.
In my walk, with every interaction, my goal is to draw that person Closer to Christ. That simple. And if I do or say something that draws them further from God then I have sinned against that person and God. That’s a tough thing to do every minute of your life. However, That’s my mindset. I decline to be a puppet and promoter of any institution (secular or faith based).
That is my experience and mind set.
I Honor you both. You have kept the faith and stayed True to Christ. Life is hard. Yet, you have overcome. You are both a blessing.
With
Dignity
and
Kindness
Ali
Thanks, Ali, for the beautiful way you “pitch your tent.” Very inspiring!
Christine – I first heard you and Scott play at a concert in 1999. Friends invited me and I was interested in going out, but was not looking forward to a typical CCM concert. I was so knocked off my seat by your performance that I bought all of your CDs and became a great fan. Afterwards, I couldn’t figure out why I didn’t hear you on the radio. They should have played everything of yours all of the time!
Anyway – thanks for sharing this “behind the scenes.” It, sadly, makes sense now. I still love you and Scott – your way with words and chords. You still knock me off my seat!
Craig, that is an amazing story from 1999!Thanks for chiming in with the encouragement ( :
Never experienced what you and your husband went through but I do understand how dealing with people and organizations can stereotype you and your music. They mold and shape you to fit into their box. But God works better outside of the box. Many people believe that you must act a certain way in order for God to make miracles happen in ones life. Over and over again, scriptures prove this to be wrong. The only thing Jesus would ask a person is if they believed in him. Having faith in Jesus changes everything.
Your music is enjoyable and thought provoking. Most Christian labeled music is thought provoking too, but is heart felt to those who are believers. No matter who is playing or singing a song, the music rarely transforms lives, but God’s Holy Word does. Sharing Jesus should be top priority in any believers life. So share God’s Holy Word so that other lives can be transformed by the renewing of their minds.
Continue to live out you & your family’s life the way you’ve been but as the word of God says, keep Christ in the center of all things.
Blessings to you & your family.
J.thanks for the words and the blessings!
Thank you for sharing your story! I’ve loved your music from the first time I heard it at Christian bookstore and still have the original tape that I “borrowed” from my roommate back then. Oops! Your music is in heavy rotation on my Spotify too. It was music like yours that gave me hope for the CCM genre and kept me interested. I not only attended many many concerts, I also promoted shows, volunteered at other shows and festivals, worked for a Christian radio station and even managed a local Christian band. I saw first hand those barriers or gatekeepers. So glad your music made it through to encourage and give us all something to relate to and ponder! Appreciate all you and Scott have done!!
Thanks, Dean, good stuff to hear!
Do you know that game people play where they think about the food, or author, or musical artist they would choose if they were stranded on a desert island and could only take one of the above with them? My collection of Out of the Grey CDs has always been on the very top of that list for me. The depth of meaning in your music, the sheer poetry and beauty of it (whether restrained and somewhat hindered by the gatekeepers or not) has had such a profound impact on my life and my husband’s, that I truly don’t believe it would be possible to overstate its importance. Last year, when I went through all the challenges of treatment for breast cancer, the song alarm I set for going to appointments was “Brave.“ My anthem for another period of life-change and struggle was “What’s It Gonna Be?” “Love Like Breathing” got me through a long period of personal conflict with the gentle reminder that my hope of truly loving the challenging people in life came from “the love sustaining me.” I could go on and on about the impact your songs have had, but I’m guessing you get the idea. Thank you for persevering through the gates, past the gatekeepers, even if it cost you a great deal of frustration at times. You may never know how much of a difference you have made.
Kat, thank you for taking the time to write about the impact our music had and has. Sooo encouraging to know we still encourage!
A radio station in Alabama? Hmmmm…I wonder which one. Perhaps the call letters are We Do Just Commercials? 🙂
I am thankful for your music and your writing on this blog. We drove our pathetically old church bus filled with teenagers from Birmingham to Nashville to see you and Charlie Peacock. Our kids had a blast. The musicianship, lyrics, and performance was as good as anything the world had to offer.
As bad as the industry is and was, I still value the lyrical content, the music, and the lives modeled by the artists. I always look to find the outliers that break the trends. They have always been hard to find but worth the search.
Thanks for walking out your journey for all of us to view…the good and the bad. I’m here for it.
Ha! Yes, maybe that’s the one ( : Kind and thoughtful words–thank you, Kevin.
My aunt was a staunch supporter of ONLY “strictly religious” CCM bands. When she heard I listened to OOTG, Amy grant, or any other bands she would become so angry and start pointing out songs or album covers and telling me how I would lose my way to GOD. I disagreed; your music and others help me bridge my real-world experience with my Christian ideals. I think many people would be shocked if they knew the inner working of industry gatekeepers in not only the mainstream but the CCM markets …. glad you persevered.
Thank you, Michael.
So sad to hear that this was all going on. But I think that we all could tell that even Christian music was still a business, at the end of the day.
I was a teenager growing up in Franklin when you all hit the scene and honestly, I loved your music. I loved your voice and style and loved the raw writing. You all were stars in my eyes!
I think you know my parents (Kenny and Susie Meeks) and know that my dad was also a musician trying to function in that system. I am thankful that now we don’t have to rely on record labels and executives but can also get the word out through other means!
Thanks for sharing your story!
Hi Sarah! Yes, your parents are friends and I get updates about you from time to time. Thanks for weighing in ( :
Christine, thank you so much for sharing a rare look into what you dealt with as a CCM artist back in the day! The level of judgement and condescension you faced in the industry blows my mind, but I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised. Regardless, your behind-the-scenes details on how your songs have been shaped are truly fascinating, and I hope you continue to share more.
Thanks,Brett, for reading and for commenting ( :
Wow, what an enlightening read! I wish that I could say that everything that you shared was a shock, but unfortunately it is not. In an ideal world things would be so different and artists would be free to express themselves. Thank you for your candor. As a fan since the late 1990’s I truly appreciate what you and Scott have accomplished with your art. Your music is still speaking to this day. God bless you and your family.
Troy, thanks for the thoughts and your blessing!
Hi Christine, thank you for the insights. Very illuminating! Are you going to reveal which songs were on the demo? My guess: Remember This, He Is Not Silent, Better Way to Fall, Time Will Tell. Remember and Time have catchy melodies. Better has that catchy and memorable musical interlude in the middle. Silent is not a typical airplay song but its message is so powerful that I can’t imagine anyone denying its quality. Did I get any of those correct? (By the way, my favorite from that album is The Deep.) God bless you always! -Nigel
Oh you were very close, Nigel! The 4 songs on the demo that made it to the record were: He Is Not Silent, Better Way to Fall, Write My Life, and The Deep–(so glad it’s your favorite!)
I was surprised but then not again surprised that this happened. Time will tell is one of my favourites of yours and would have been good either way. At least the change made pointed us to God when we just don’t know the answers so you made a good choice. Also at least that opened the gate for many other profound songs to get through that would really provoke thought and attention. My Out of the grey albums are one of the biggest treasure troves of wisdom I possess and I honestly would not want to have been without them. God spoke to me time and again through your music and because of that I do feel you were speaking his words to us. As you know I still regularly listen and notice things I hadn’t noticed before or the meaning hits home at last! Yesterday I was listening to ‘All we need’ which I’ve heard many times before but it came alive to me in a new way. Thank you for persevering when the way was tough. As I always love to say No labour of love is in vain! Not one word was wasted.
Ian, I am (almost) wordless at the words you wrote. Thank you for again taking the time to listen and to speak ( :
Reminiscent of Leslie/Sam Phillips….sad the CCM community lost out on so much talent and original creativity. It is an unfortunate stain. Those of us who refuse to play the game of conforming and becoming a puppet are too often outcast, or told we not true Christians. I say, it’s okay, I’m in good company and I think Jesus would agree. Perfection according to man’s standards is pharisaical. I’m proud to be one of the flawed humans God continues to use for His purposes. Your music and lyrics were like a breath of fresh air. Thank you.
Thanks, Lori, for your thoughts and kindness ( :
I think I’ve always hated the whole concept of “gatekeeping”, especially as it applies to people of faith trying to creatively express themselves. Wanting the message to be clear and explicit and agreeable to the lowest common denominator every single time kills art. And it insults the audience’s intelligence. C’mon, CCM industry, give us some credit! It’s not like we had to puzzle all that hard to figure out where God was in an Out of the Grey song that didn’t explicitly mention God by name.
When I was a teenager first getting into music of the 90s, I limited myself to “Christian music” only, because I thought this was the morally right thing that was expected of me. As I transitioned out of college and into adulthood at the beginning of the 21st century, I broadened my horizons and started listening to more mainstream and indie music. I’ve grown to appreciate music of pretty much all kinds since then. Still, I had the unique experience of my love affair with music being kicked off by my youth pastor loaning me her copy of your first album, and it still strikes an incredibly deep chord with me, despite a lot of the CCM I liked back in those days not aging particularly well. I recently did a write-up of my favorite 90s albums, after making a herculean effort to catch up on all the music outside of CCM from those days that I now found to be interesting/influential. I made no distinction between “Christian” and “secular” when making this list; I just chose the albums I still enjoyed the most. Your debut landed at #6 on that list of 100 favorite albums spanning that entire decade. I think it’s more than just plain old nostalgia that put it there.
Here’s the link, if you’re curious:
https://murlough23.wordpress.com/2022/01/27/the-sweetest-albums-of-the-90s-part-v-1-20/
Great list, David! Thanks for including Out of the Grey ( :
Wow! Wow! This is how bad things happen to GOOD PEOPLE! What a TRUE SHAME that, BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS , TOO, FACED DISCRIMINATION BY TOP GATEKEEPERS!
It is still predictable and boring. I never listen to christian radio. Although I listen to a lot of christian music
thx for answering my question!
Thanks for sharing. Even the secular bands have their niches and formulae, their “Brand.” C’est la vie. The good stuff lasts. OOTG holds up well. I’ve shed most of my youthful oft played faves. What continues in the rotation? Rush and OOTG. Dirt Poor Robins came along later, husband wife combo, Christians, and WAY off the main stream. Not unlike Dente & Dente inc. Thank you for coloring so richly my life’s soundtrack so far.
wow, nice to be included in your perennials–thx, Sean!
I’m grateful for the Christian music store in Lincoln Nebraska that displayed your CDs and offered a big set of headphones to preview your music in the early 1990s. I only needed a moment to listen, I bought them both right away.
30 years later I was in a low spot and in that moment I heard your voice. I hadn’t heard your music in years but you were right there when I needed to hear it.
Excellent! (I was grateful for those listening booths, too)
Hi Christine,
Has the “Closer to Free” digital album been removed online? I can’t seem to find it anywhere.
yes it has been removed. It was costing more to keep it posted than earning ):
Thanks for responding! I’ll keep looking for where I first downloaded it. I’ve got to have it somewhere!
I found my way here as I was fruitless searching for an album I had in the 90’s where you sang a song that went …fear is dwelling in these bones, wish it would leave me alone…
I could have sworn it was a compilation album with other artists because the other song on it that I am craving to hear is Psalm 46 sung by some contemporary male artist of that time. I am coming up completely empty and it’s driving me mad! There are many versions of it on YouTube but none are the one I’m looking for.
These two songs have always been in my heart even though I have left religion behind and walk a brilliant trinity-focused path of light.
I still have and treasure the Out of the Grey cds I have. Just blown away by the musical genius and beauty of the music you two made together! Ah, what a gift.
Anyway, if you can help me solve this mystery O would be so thrilled! Blessings to you and yours, most-favored songbird!
Coram Deo is the project, “Forever I Will Trust in You” is the song! https://amzn.to/3R8RhLb
Interesting to hear this take. I’ve heard stuff from people who have toured over the last ten years about the things inside the CCM machine they’ve had to deal with, but not from back then.
The first album of yours that I picked up was The Shape of Grace. While some of the earmarks of the time are present (electronic drums, shiny production, etc.), what I loved about that record was how *different* it sounded, overall, from most of the pop and A/C stuff I was used to hearing on CCM stations. You weren’t afraid to use imagery not typically found in most songs by Christian artists, and your arrangements flet homemade rather than I went back and forth on purchasing it, but “Nothing’s Gonna Keep Me From You” had such a great sound to it, and when I saw that Charlie Peacock produced it, I was sold (The Secret of Time and Love Life were on heavy rotation at the time).
I can understand why it felt you had to keep things wrapped up pretty tightly to remain on a CCM label and on CCM radio, but what you guys were able to do helped create and identity and brand that allowed people like myself, who were sick of the same old “pop music” approach, to finally hear something that was slightly left of center, and the fact that it was also getting played on radio gave me hope. I was raised on rock, metal, alternative, punk, and rap/hip-hop, but I’ve always been a sucker for a well-crafted pop melody. My girlfriend at the time commented that it was odd to see my music collection—Holy Soldier, The Choir, One Bad Pig, Mortal, and Circle of Dust sat next to the likes of Margaret Becker, Chris Eaton, Russ Taff, and Out of the Grey.
So from one creative to another, thank you for being as authentic as the machine would allow, and for continuing to be true to yourselves.
Thanks, Zach, for your considerate and interesting picture of the music, the era, the sounds, and the left-of-center approach that drew you! I appreciate the appreciation a lot ( :
Christine,
I remember the day I heard Out of the Grey for the first time. I was Music Director at WAYJ, the original WAY-FM. I was blown away. We were always fighting for new, fresh relevant music that would reach an unreached generation. There were a few of us that truly tried to change the rules, to widen the “gate”. But it was a constant battle.
After my tenure at Way came to a close, Chris Coppernoll and I tried to use Soul2Soul as a way to expand the universe of what was possible, if only in some small way. It was our great pleasure to honor you and Scott at our first live event in 2004.
While doctrine and theology are crucial to the Christian life, so, too, is the ability to experience the breadth and wide expanse of the breathtaking beauty of creation, including music.
It baffles me that people of The Most High God, the inventor of beauty itself, seem too rigid and narrow in their vision to appreciate the gifts He bestows on some, such as yourself. As for me, whenever I hear “Nothing’s Gonna Keep Me From You ,” I am immediately drawn back to a place of rapturous joy. It is one of my all-time favorites.
Thank you for sharing your music and your heart. Some of us did “hear” you. And we were changed forever for the better as a result.
God bless,
Mike
Yes, Mike, Soul2Soul was a good venture and we really were honored that night in 2004! We humans do struggle with the boundaries and the freedoms we hunger for. Not surprising that some of us lean one way and others the opposite. And I’m grateful that you still get a good feeling when you hear that song of ours–and that you took the time to say so here–thanks!
I worked on the business side of CCM from 1994 to 2019. I was a Christian concert promoter, booking agent and in sales at a large CCM label group. I have seen exactly what you wrote about. It’s too bad it has to be that way. Thanks for your insight. Appreciate you and Scott.
Thank you, Mike ( :
What a great read! I’ve been a part of the CCM scene, largely in Australia, but I still relate to this a great deal, being at various times both “in” and “out” of favour and fashion.
For some reason, although I’ve heard of OOTG, I don’t think I’ve ever really paid much attention. This is going to change this weekend – I’m going to give myself an education, which I’m quite looking forward to.
All the best, and thanks again for the post.
Hey Jared, thanks for reading and adding your thoughts. I hope you enjoy the OOTG brushing up!
Christine – what an insightful article. I was the camera guy shooting the interview with you and Scott for the story that aired on The 700 Club on CBN. Your music was so cool and so different that it inspired me to light your interview shoot some unconventional angles in that little coffeehouse somewhere in Nashville. Thanks for making art as it inspired me beyond the status quo of my craft as well. Godspeed.
Wow, that is going way back. Thank you for taking the time to read and to encourage, Matt.
This sounds very similar to what Leslie Phillips, now Sam Phillips, experienced while in CCM during the 1980s. Have you ever met her or exchanged your CCM experiences with one another? The saddest part is such “gatekeeping” can, and has, resulted in turning some away from God’s Word and orthodox Christianity.
Hans, I have not met Sam but do recall her story. Thanks for engaging ( :
Wow such a great blog/article/confession. Just noticed this was shared from Jamie Rowe’s Facebook page and after reading it I felt compelled to reply. And side note: I admittedly forgot all about your music until I saw the link and I was like “I remember them!!” Re-listening now on Spotify and reliving some good times.
I never considered myself in the CCM space per say (more like CCM-adjacent) as my miniscule UHF Christian video show was never very big and we never got ratings reported to us from the station’s owner.
Never the less I was -stoked- to be doing what I was doing. I had recommitted my life to Christ in the early 90s when a lot of this new wave of Christian music was coming out so it was like this amazing one-two punch of creativity to me. And man did I eat it up. I listened to everything from Amy Grant, Out of the Grey, Bryan Duncan, and PFR to Mortal, Guardian, Bride, Michael Sweet, Dynamic Twins, DC Talk, and so on.
I must have spoken to dozens of music artists during that timeframe, as a fan and occasionally as someone interviewing them for my show (or the other music video show I helped with). So reading some of the thoughts you listed above made so much sense. Especially knowing what I know now that I didn’t know then.
I remember talking with a band that I had become friends with their bassist and hearing how they had gone on a small tour through SoCal and churches wanted to bring them in but felt paying them in pizza was recompense enough. They understood how poor some places could be, but like you mentioned above, some people were trying to create this art and make a living at it. So that was eye opening to me. It shouldn’t have been because its not like I was getting paid lol. Late nights at the studio to set up and take down my own set, manually change over the end of day signal, etc.
I won’t mention his name, but I recall speaking to another fairly big artist who by the 90’s had finally made national buzz. But I recall him talking about problems (at that time) with Frontline Records. In keeping his cards close to his chest I recall him keeping it pretty vague but he made it sound like behind the scene politics over creative. That was the first time I had heard that kind of comment coming from an artist.
Remember that bassist I mentioned above? Well he and his band had been in the music scene for awhile by that point and they had a vocalist from another band hanging out with them. As he put it “he was struggling” which is always code for a struggle with faith so my other friend and I took that to mean to be careful and as understanding as we could. They were playing a gig at a local roller rink that a church had rented out for a Christian music night and I think I missed almost their whole show. This vocalist was chatting with my other friend and I (who this friend was a HUGE fan of the vocalist’s band) and the vocalist was just going on and on about his experiences behind the scenes and this big book he was going to put out. He handed the manuscript to us to read and give back to my bassist friend.
Man this was a dark read. That was the second major eye opener to me what it was like behind the scenes for some artists. I took it for what it was, but in even doing that I knew at least parts of it couldn’t have been that far off. The pressure of trying to create and actually survive, to keep the faith but have others around you who may not be as “evenly yoked” with the art and Christ, that is a tough grind to navigate. And one I don’t think secular artists would fully understand.
Thank you so much for putting this out here!!
Thanks, Jerome, for reading and for adding your thoughts!
Hi Christine,
Your interview took me back to when you and Scott first came on the scene and were releasing music in the early 90’s. I remember getting the first OOTG tape and being so excited with it. Between my best friend and college roommate at the time, I also had Diamond Days and a couple others.
I wanted to ask if you think that all CCM artists had the same experience? Also, what are you and your husband doing now (last 5-10 years)?
I’m curious to know your thoughts since with streaming and the multiple platforms music can now be found it seems that it would be even harder to get established or “discovered” by record companies. Overall I think the entire CCM industry has become diluted and less original. I might be wrong though, since I certainly don’t keep up with it as I did 25-30 years ago.
Gotta get that cassette–ha! I do not keep up with current CCM either. Scott has a business partnership (Global Genius/Bigger Story Music) that creates a music library offering all kinds of genres for video/ film/commercials, etc. I occasional sing on these. Also, I write and hang out with my kids and grandkids. Thanks for asking!
I moved recently, dusted off my stereo, pulled out some CDs and of course, had to put at least one of my OOTG CDs in the carousel. From there, I found your website. When I saw this post, mentioning the grandkids, I remember seeing you in concerts in Orlando so many years go, with your kids in tow. How time flies! You are still my favorite music group. Your sound is so different from everyone else’s. The songs address the daily things in life that often make God seem so far away.
I have had for years this feeling that CCM is all staged and cyclical and at times extremely boring. For awhile, everything will be praise and worship, then it will allow a short time of very personal and intimate songs (part of what I so love so much about your music). Then, it back to praise and worship and on it goes.
As a recently returned resident of Alabama (after quite a few years in Florida), may I apologize for that person who was so narrow minded that he deprived his listeners of your great music! He missed the opportunity to share God blessings!
Hey thanks, Alison, for such a great personal note ( :
This is one of the kinder and more generous pieces I’ve read from Christian artists about the CCM industry, so thank you for that. Thank you for your music and ministry. I remember the first time I heard “Wishes” on Christian radio, the cool bass part stopped me in my tracks. I knew I wanted that album! I enjoyed all your albums, especially “See Inside,” as well as the “Keaggy King Dente” and “Ashton Becker Dente” albums, and your work on the “Coram Deo” albums, too. I got to see you and Scott at a concert in north Alabama, I think it was in Decatur, some time around the turn of the century. I enjoyed it very much. Blessings to you.
Morgan, thanks for the blessings! And yes that bass part was killer–thanks to Charlie P for the pains-taking that brought such quality to the tracks.
quickly – not much to say that hasn’t already been said – the recent burst of comments is probably because your blog was reposted on some facebook CCM pages (actually 70s Jesus music pages where a lot of time is spent griping about the same “mindustry” things you rightly gripe about). While I understand/sympathize some of the CCM business practices and resulting (un)artistic choices, they definitely frustrate me and I wonder if they directly thwart the stated purpose of reaching the non-Christian. Anyways, loved your first few albums – my pre-Christian music taste was 70s British progressive, and in a lot of ways your music was the closest to it that could be found on Christian radio. Early 92 I was in the DC area and some people were hoping to start a coffeehouse named Heavens Door as an outreach, and I would’ve loved to use Wishes as a theme song, it would’ve been perfect lyrically and musically. I’d encourage you to not kick yourselves for the compromises you made. Enough art and quality came through (even if it wasn’t all of what you had to offer), and you can read here lots of us are still grateful. Glad for this internet thing that I can give you my thanks.
Thanks for the heads-up on the recent comments…I was wondering! I appreciate your kindness and graciousness, K-Y.
Out of the Grey was one of my absolute favorites, He is Not Silent (POWERFUL), the Dance (mesmerizing take on love), your music, each and every song was a part of my daily life….you impacted my walk with Christ and my life as a young woman! I’m sorry you struggled and all experiences weren’t pleasurable but you made and continue to make a difference in this world, I’m sorry people didn’t always recognize this but let’s not forget, it was the religious leaders (self proclaimed gatekeepers) who ultimately crucified the Son of God…I hope your mansion is close to mine in heaven so I can continue to enjoy the beauty of your music!
thanks, Kim ( :
I am currently going through a binge of Out of the Grey music and wish to offer my thoughts. First, I thank God that not only did your marriage survive but you also were able to raise a family in the midst of your CCM career. Secondly, your catalog on the whole might be the most consistent in all CCM in terms of melodic, harmonic, and lyrical content. I also really admire our fellow Pennsylvania artists Glad for their faithfulness in singing the message of the cross. As far as gatekeepers go, I am sure some talented artists were halted at the door based on looks alone.
Don, thanks for weighing in with your thoughts. I appreciate your encouragement!
I’ve been a fan since the first album and yes I have all the records and I also have the side projects you did with others. But I have a story that relates to “Gravity”. As a young father raising 3 kids getting a career going, the song “We never got to Paris” really spoke to me and where I was at the time, busy “between the living and learning” ,and “living and dying “. Its a melancholy song that even today brings me to tears about dreams that we have to put off because of just doing life, but that has its own joys and memory’s to be made and cherished. Now I’ve been on business trips to Paris, and my wife studied for a time outside of Paris, but we have never been there together, until a couple of weeks ago. We finally made it just the two of us and yes we found the cafe of our dreams! On our flight back I played this song, and yes tears flowed even though that dream had come true.
Its sad to hear about the “gatekeepers” messing with lyrics and artists. CCM has gotten safe and stale and boring and cookie cutter to the point I really don’t listen to it anymore. While worship music is great and has a place, I’d much rather hear real stories of real life that doesn’t have to have an overt “Christian” message, which is why I have always enjoyed your music. Thanks for writing about . . . life!
What a great story, Steve! I’m so glad to hear about your full-circle experience. It resembles ours: Scott and I did get to Paris and had some fine cafe moments. Thanks for listening in across all of these years ( :
I gave up on making music specifically because of this, from both Christian and other gatekeepers—the pressure to compromise one’s “art” in the name of “conformity”.
yes it can sap your love and energy for the creative process. Sorry you had a negative experience, Steven.
Christine, you are kinder than I could be if I were telling stories from the “rise and fall” of the CCM machine. It seems my favorite artists–many of whom I still have CDs of today–didn’t fit well into the industry mold. I gravitated toward artists/groups like OOTG, Rich Mullins (who had his own struggles with an industry that just couldn’t understand him and his music), Daniel Amos, Mark Heard, Sixpence None the Richer, Bob Bennett, Phil Keaggy… the list is long. But your (and their) music endures and still speaks in ways that reach deep. For example, I cannot tell you how often I play the duet of “The Weight of the Words”/”Gravity” and find myself in tears; those two songs fit together and grab hold of me, even at my advanced age. (Are they, as I have always suspected, meant to play off each other?) I cherish many of your songs, from all of your CDs, and are grateful that you and Scott were there back then, living your faith in the real world and reflecting that in your music. Your persistence and artistry have meant much to me and my wife over the years; I’m glad you and Scott are still out there reaching out in faith. God bless you both.
Hey BK, I appreciate your kindness and encouragement. Scott and I did strive to be honest and faithful in our artistry and our lives. And, funny, I never put Weight of the Words and Gravity together in my mind…I think you’re on to something!
Just to listen to you is great! 😀 Whether it’s in the car🚗 or in my CD📀 player at home. The memories flooding back into my heart,❤ make lots of the songs🎶 from that time period the best on a long drive! I’m glad that I still have your Out Of The Grey CD. Sorry😯 about all you went through, but I’m thrilled that I found you!👏 God bless you in your new endeavors. Blessings, Lark
Thanks, Lark, so good to know!
Great article and informative look at the behind the scenes in CCM. I have to be honest. I had no idea who Out Of The Grey was prior to picking up See Inside tape in 1999 back in high school. It was placed in the folk/country rack and i was into country at the time (in the Philippines, country is a niche genre and lumped with folk and soft rock). When i put it on i knew it wasn’t country but i also knew it wasn’t “alternative rock” (today i found your music is nicely categorized as westcoast-AOR by Japanese and Scandinavian collectors). But i like it. I was not aware you were part of CCM until a little later in college when i got introduced to the internet (in 2002!). Since then i’ve been retrobacking and discovering your earlier records, which to me fitted more with the westcoast-AOR sound than See Inside and 6.1. But See Inside will always be my favorite because of the experienced associated with it (gtowing pains, school stuff, puppy love problems).
While some CCM is part of our country’s mainstream pop radio (Casting Crowns’ Who Am I, Jaci Velasquez’s Imagine Me Without U, and Matt Redman’s 10000 Reasons are few examples of CCM on pop radio), somehow Out of the Grey was not one of them so discovering your album was like a found treasure
Michael, I’m glad you painted that picture of your experience with our music! So unique. And I thank you for reading my story and for weighing in here in the comments.